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A new piece in the New York Times continues to push the idea that women who are too successful tend to be less lucky in finding and keeping a male partner. The article notes that while men do not like to be out earned by their partners, women whose partners are equally as successful are often forced into the role of homemakers once children are born. The successful women in the piece note that they keep the peace with their boyfriends and husbands by letting them drive, hold doors, pay for dinner (even if it is with the woman’s money) and do other stereotypically masculine things. Indeed, much of the tenor of the article is that women should try to behave more traditionally and make themselves seem helpless and submissive (more like the stereotypes of women in caring professions such as teaching and nursing, which are highly attractive to men); the …
… former CEO of the German version of Match.com notes:
“Men don’t want successful women, men want to be admired. It’s important to them that the woman is full of energy at night and not playing with her BlackBerry in bed.”
But is this really true? Are men this shallow? Tracy Clark-Flory at Salon asked several men of varying means how they felt and the consensus seemed to be that most of the fear was that men often did not feel secure enough to go after a woman that might be considered successful, out of fear that she would not consider them interesting or would be out of their league. However, they all noted that they had dated successful women and that they did not feel threatened (and actually liked the displays of ambition), no matter how much more prestige or money their partners made.
They point out that the real problems that successful people, both male and female, have is that they are often so career-focused they are unable to devote enough time to cultivate a relationship. People in this pattern often allow their success to go to their heads, thus developing egos and nasty personalities that make them less attractive to everyone else. Indeed, the general conclusion was that men who actively do not want to date successful women are probably “dicks” who don’t like the idea of “partnership,” but want to exert economic and social power over their partners.
So, to conclude, I think it is fair to say that most men are not really averse to dating successful women, but have been socialized to feel that being with one makes them inadequate. The major obstacle for any successful person in forming a relationship is striking a work/life balance and it their seems to be a perception that high-powered women (whether rightly or wrongly) have a hard time achieving this. I think that as we are such a workaholic society that is always connected, it often creates friction between couples who feel that they are less important than their partner’s career. While it would be good to see people spend less time with their nose to the grindstone and more with their partners/families, I don’t think most men (or most women) want their partner just lying around waiting for them to get home so they can fawn all over them; people realize that the world is a very complicated place and that just sitting on your ass all day does not make you a very interesting or very desirable person. Ambition is sexy!
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Up to a point, the egos and “nasty personalities” that many career-oriented men and women have are incredibly appealing to some people. While it would make them terrible parents, I think that it can make them into admirable and desirable people . . . for some of us.
I must be weird. Ambition is a total turn off. Not to say lazy slobs are attractive, but the competitive nature of most very ambitious people repels me.
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I totally agree with the notion that most guys who are turned off by successful women are “dicks who don’t like the idea of partnership.”
I also think that men who are very competitive in their business life bring that competitive nature home and don’t like being shown up by their “partner.”
I’ve seen that same attitude displayed in gay couples too though, so I’m not sure it really a male/female thing. I think it’s just an interpersonal relationship thing.
I bet most guys who are turned off by more successful partners also hate it when their siblings do better than they do.
Well, is it ambition that turns you off, or excessive competitiveness, which just happens to go along with ambition in many cases?
I can see why that would annoy you, but I don’t see a problem with well-tempered ambition.
I think it’s just more common to see that insane competitiveness in men than in women, so it is more often seen as male-female. Not because it has to be gender-specific.
I’m turned off by men who are so insecure with their own masculinity that they are threatened by the success of a woman just because she’s a woman. I agree with other commenters that a hyper-ambitious attitude is unattractive in anyone, but it’s possible for a woman to be successful in the career world or earn more than her partner without being overly ambitious.
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I wonder if there’s any correlation between men who are threatened by this, and men who are homophobic because they feel gay men threaten their masculinity as well. Or maybe these men just don’t like anyone to be more successful than them regardless of gender, like Alzaetia said If so, lol, they need to get over their feelings being hurt. In this economy, being upset that someone in your household is raking in the dough is just petty.
Is is that they are turned off, or is it that a successful woman is in the position where she can say ‘good-bye’ to unfulfilling relationships? I’ve wondered it myself and as I’ve gotten to know more women who have personal financial success, it seems as they they are less likely to ‘need’ someone else. At that same point, I know some well off (read via inheritance) lazy a-holes with absolutely no motivation, who seem to revolve their lives around trying to be in a relationship. Again — they don’t have any of their own successes and things keeping them too busy for crappy love lives.
I’ve had the luck to know (and also be related to) some very successful people, both men and women. Across the board, the Type A behavior that has driven their success also drives their personal life. As it should be, we don’t totally compartmentalize our lives that way.
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However, it either makes them extremely difficult to keep up with, and extremely difficult to please. My stepmother, bless her heart, runs something like 6 research teams working on high-tech defense projects, is a commander in the Navy reserves, runs nine miles a day every day, and still has time to organize her socks by length and shade. She’s brilliant, and driven, and wonderful, but I come out of a conversation with her feeling like a screw up hippie beach bum though I’m doing extremely well for my age. I can’t imagine having to live with someone like that. She’s perfect for my dad though.
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I don’t think it’s a man/woman thing, it’s a personality thing.
I think the Type A behavior makes the most sense as to why someone would be intimidated by a successful woman. I think mens’ reluctance to date a successful woman is exaggerated, but it makes sense that people with Type A personalities are harder to be in a relationship with. The only difference between men and women in that sense is that men can still acquire trophy wives with the spine of a jellyfish to deal with their driven personalities. That definitely doesn’t happen nearly as often with trophy husbands.
My sister has a respectable playing programming job at around 60k+ and she been complaining recently about the available dating pool.
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The men making similar or more income are often taken. I cant say if the taken men dated down or not, but the pool she is left with are the guys who make less then 25k.
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She likes to go on dates at places like clubs and themed bars. She pays for her own drinks, but she says her fun is still often cut short when the guy she is interested in cuts out after a few dates because he can handle the “beer budget”. The way she made it sound, her problem had more to do with the inability of these men to keep up with her life style during the dating process. She also carries a policy of never paying for her dates and the men understand this.
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The men try to change the dynamics from a night on the town to picnics, evening at home where they cook, watching a cheap movie or playing a video game, but her lack of interest in many of these things shows through. I have meet a few of these men and I do think they end up feeling inadequate, but I do not think it ever stats out that way.
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She told me she does feel a bit like a victim of “success” because shes has become accustom to living the life style her increased disposable income allows her to.
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“Dating down is like going back in time. A home movie is something I did on a date in high school and college because I had no money. I have money now.”
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I find men who make a great deal more often(not always) attempt to “lift” a women into a different life style and are willing to pay for it to happen. When they both make the same amount the life style pace of the relationship if often equal.
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I cant say anything useful about couples that are already together when an income gap forms other then I know of more relationships that are fine after it happened then I do that fell apart.
When I had a job and therefore had money I was still the person who wanted to stay home and cook, or play video games/watch a movie, or go mushroom hunting. It sounds like she just likes to go to clubs and they don’t want to go out all the time, that’s a difference in personality issue not a money issue.
I understand the money part of it. My parents are pretty wealthy and they pay for everything for me, plus some spending money while I’m in school. This means I get to go out on the town a few times a month for dinner and drinks. I’ve been in relationships with guys from the working class, and this was an issue. They either have to suck it up and let me pay for a cool date or they can’t handle it and things don’t work out. Here’s the thing though – having honest discussions about class status can be difficult, but ultimately I think they make everyone feel more secure. The strive for individualism in this country makes people attribute issues like this to their personal failures (I’m a loser because I can’t pay for a date for my girlfriend) instead of broader class issues (my class status bars me from social capital and education that would allow me to have a high-paying career which would leave me with more disposable income for a date for my girlfriend).
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That’s what’s missing here because we’re all so scared of talking about class. Once it is out in the open, it’s a hell of a lot easier for a guy to see that he isn’t suffering from a personal failing at all. No more hurt ego, no more need for coddling his feelings. Then you can divy up how things work – I pay for the nice dates I want, you organize movie night. Voila.
And how come your sister doesn’t want to pay for the man’s date? If true equaltiy were to exist, don’t you think this would be true? Why is it that the man must pay for all dates?
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I’ve been on that side of the spectrum and I had no problem with paying for or sharing the cost of dates.
I think the kind of guys who are concerned with their successful girlfriends “not playing with her BlackBerry in bed” are threatened by the vibrating mechanism of the phone. Just sayin…a guy shouldn’t be threatened by his girlfriend’s phone…
I call crap on this, dating is hard, finding someone to form a lasting relationship is harder. These “successful” women are just suffering from the same issues that plague “successful” men (hell most men). The skills it takes to attract a worthwhile mate are different from the skills it takes to be successful in the business world. How many men do you know with good jobs, cars, houses and money that have trouble finding compatible women? Hell guys shell out thousands to PUA to teach them how to get a girlfriend. The only difference is that when a man strikes out with multiple women and can’t find a girlfriend he usually (and rightly) blames himself. These women are blaming men for there lack of success, would this even be an issue if the genders were reversed or would you be laughing at the “losers” who can’t get a date? Point being if these women want a man, go out and get one, hit on dudes, face rejection. Just because they make tons of cash and have degrees does not mean the world owes them a man…. just sayin
I do find that women who strike out frequently with men usually are the ones who say “all men are jerks/assholes/only after pussy/etc…” and quite frequently they don’t consider that, at the very least, they’re ignoring the genuinely great guys because of some stupid physical flaw. I wouldn’t say that all men who continually strike out blame themselves, though. There are a lot of guys out there who describe themselves as “nice guys” (while being, in fact, socially inept, controlling assholes who feel entitled to women) and say that women always ignore them because they’re too nice or something.
I think bitter people who cannot face the fact that they are the problem are pretty much equal in both genders personally. The females *usually* fall back on the “men only want sex and sandwiches” type of denial and the males *usually* fall back on the “women only get aroused for money and abusive assholes” type of denial. And I actually think that truly, wildly, successful people are more likely to have that denial because they are soooo used to being excellent at everything they do for work that they can’t imagine that they are flawed and their narcissism leads to trying desperately to come up with a reason it was the other persons fault.
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Boring what the hell is PUA?
One more time now, damned spam filter!
Pick Up Artist.
A PUA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community) is the particle a TFL (http://www.trueforcedloneliness.com/) is the anti-particle, if the two ever bump into each other the universe would implode, or they would say “excuse me” and keep moving, one of the two.
Okay, boring.
I’m not certain whether to laugh or cry. Where do you find this crap?
I particularly enjoyed the “Pussy Renaissance” video. Do these men – who describe themselves as men who can’t get a woman (and blame the women for this, naturally) really think they can change this just because they say so?
This was a sad look into the psyche of a group of delusional men.
And, they have their own web site. Wow. Just wow.
Why are they all in cars?
They’re either on their way to their moms or the therapist.
My husband was thrilled when I made more money than him and had a busy career. Circumstances have changed, but he certainly likes it when I have a job so I’m not bored enough to come up with things for him to do all day.
I agree with the part of the article which makes reference to one’s success getting in the way of cultivating a personal life.
I’m 35 years old, an attorney, and I am very fortunate to enjoy a mid six-figure income. Since getting out of school ten years ago, my career has been my life. I’m too tired at the end of the day (which is typically around 8:00 PM) to go and engage in a lot of the activities that lead to meeting someone. I got where I am – in part – by making good choices, so I won’t become involved with someone with whom I work.
Oops- accidentally hit ’submit’!!
I would love – absolutely love – to meet a driven, ambitious woman. But I figure that woman is probably doing what I’m doing at this instant – sitting at home on a Friday night too tired from an exhausting week to really go out and do anything. So it goes…..