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Hello, everyone! It seems that we’ve gotten off on a bit of a bad foot with this Olivia Munn business. Partly in response to some less-than-amused commenters on this site, and partly in response to Amanda Hess’s recent article Feminism For Bitches (hint — I’m the bitch), I thought it might be best to clarify some things.
I’m not “angry.” Olivia Munn rubs me the wrong way, but at the end of the day, I don’t hate her, and frankly, it’s because Olivia Munn has no real impact on my life. I don’t know her personally, she hasn’t been that big a presence on The Daily Show yet, I don’t follow her on Twitter, I don’t watch Attack of the Show and I don’t buy Maxim or Playboy. So while my diatribes on the evils of Munn were considered “out of bounds,” to some people, so too is Amanda Hess’s rigorous defense of her for the same reasons stated above.
Hess’s article has some really good points to make about how this problem with Munn is really a larger problem with society and the media and I encourage you to read it. But the biggest problem with Hess’s article is that it feeds into the idea that Munn needs to be protected — from Playboy, from bloggers, etc. — suggests that she cannot speak for herself. And it’s clear from the interviews she’s given that Munn has absolutely no problem speaking for herself.
And by the way — this whole “I was tricked into doing a sexier photo shoot than I wanted” thing? Yeah, she’s claiming it happened two more times in a new interview with Vanity Fair where she promotes her new book by complaining about the cover and her old bosses:
I was at the photo shoot for the cover, and I’ve never done this before, but I just shut it down. I was crying. I knew what the publishers wanted. I’m not stupid. But I wanted to compromise. I told them I’d bring the Wonder Woman outfit to the shoot, but I do not want to be on the cover dressed like Wonder Woman. So I’m at a studio in LA, and the photographer keeps calling the publishers in New York, and she’s telling me what they want. “O.K., less tie. Open the shirt a little more. They want more cleavage.” Finally I was like “No!” I know they’ve done book stuff for a long time, and they know what they’re doing. But I was like, “What do you guys think is going to happen? Are you literally going to gang-bang me, throw me down, dress me in the Wonder Woman outfit and be like, ‘Now smile, Olivia. Smile!’” It was just too much. I wish I had pushed harder against it.
When the interviewer responds by saying, basically, “You were surprised that they wanted cleavage? You jumped into a pie dressed like a French Maid,” Munn responds by saying that the producer on Attack of the Show had been trying to unfairly exploit her by doing a bathrobe strip tease.
I have to say that for someone who litters her Twitter and webpage with photos of herself in various sexy costumes, states of undress and the supposedly traumatizing cover of her new book that she’s currently drumming up publicity for, I just remain skeptical of Olivia Munn’s complaints. It should also be noted that, a few paragraphs down from her claims that her bosses and publishers are all trying to get her naked and film her, she then cracks a joke about crying “sexism”:
You’re just saying that because you’re a man. You’re a man trying to oppress me! Wait, is that why my publicist told me to put on a bikini before I called you? I said, “He’s not going to see me or anything.” But she was like, “Eric just wants to know that you’re wearing one. [...] Just put on your lip gloss and be pretty, Olivia.” (Giggles in a little girl voice.) O.K., sure! Whatever it takes to make him like me!”
What’s frustrating about Munn’s game here is that there really are women being exploited in the media — and with far less press and publicity and support. If this is all just a joke to her, it’s in as poor taste as any of the other rape or Holocaust jokes I’ve seen her crack in the past few weeks.
Because honestly? Someone who walks into Jon Stewart’s office and cracks a Holocaust denial joke, someone who makes jokes about children being raped, someone who tells anyone who doesn’t like her that they’re a fat bitch does not get a free pass and a sympathy vote when they suddenly want to cry abuse. Now that’s feminism for bitches.
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Meh, clearly you don’t like this girl. There’s this guy at work and I HATE him; never spoken to him or worked on anything with him but I can’t stand him. Own it, you want to not like this girl or not believe her cry-baby story about Playboy, or not find her antics cute or believable, whatever, who the hell cares if someone thinks you’re a bitch?
I keep reading her going on about Iron Man 2….I saw it twice and still managed to miss her great performance…
The whole bitch thing is solely owned by me. Try to take my title and I will hurt you – remember- I’m old, but I am in incredible shape.
Seriously, what irks me about this whole thing is the decided “Hollywood” bent the site seems to have taken since you newbs came on the scene.
There are so many good stories out there – things that matter, things that we NEED to hear about – why the hell would you expect anyone with half a brain to give a flying fuck what these clowns are doing?
If you like, I will cheerfully send you a link to a good subject every day. Just please – send the cheesy sleazy shit on over to Evil Beet. Nothing wrong with it, but it just isn’t quality content for a feminist site to have postings about actors and television shows, etc every day.
That’s my rant.
For this noontime. Only.
There’s a lot of daylight left and I have plenty of bitch left in me.
Blurry, I totally agree.
Whilst I’m into variety, and all for ZL covering a wide range of topics and types of pieces, I much prefer posts about, as you put it, ‘things that matter.’
Posts about playboy models for Evil Beet; high-quality, intelligent pieces about real news for Zelda Lily.
Silly posts followed by silly follow-ups like this do not rock my party.
I was cringing a bit when I read this thread considering that two of my pieces from yesterday were celebrity-centered and the third (the erstwhile Twilight dildo) could arguably fall under that category as well.
However, I think it’s valuable to incorporate issues faced by celebrities as they fall under the feminism umbrella. Diandra Douglas’ husband is a celebrity … but how many women have, right or wrong, contested a finalized divorce after the fact? And Kate Gosselin is unquestionably celeb gossip fodder, but plastic surgery, trying to raise children as a single mother when your ex is acting like a complete buffoon, struggling to be “normal” (or not … I guess this is dictated by your take on Kate Gosselin) … these are feminist issues. They are worthy of rich, meaningful discussion. If celebrities are the vehicle that we take sometimes to get to these issues, I hope you’re able to see that the issues themselves are still legitimate.
My ellipsis issue is heading into high gear (plus it’s ridiculously hot and humid where I am so my brain’s not at its best), but I hope this makes some sort of sense :-)
The Twilight piece had merit. The question of marketing focus is an issue.
The Douglas post? Eh – one of those point of view things.
Lover her or hate her, Kate Gosseln interest most women. She (as someone who should be a private citizen) is living what should be a private period of her life WAY out there and it is interesting. Right or wrong, we like to argue about her.
Not everything has to have a big ‘ol femme stamp on it.
Just don’t insult my intelligence with stuff that clearly has NOTHING to do with the stated goal of ZL. The posting about the Ink & Iron pageant was actually revolting in its sycophantic adulation.
My eyes are still slapping me for reading that.
*Afterthought*
I’m not sure I totally agree when you say the ‘newbs’ to ZL have given the site a ‘Hollywood bent.’ Whilst Sarah A and Paige seem to be writing some stuff that would be more suited to a totally different (read: gossipy) site, I actually really like the articles Paige and Amy are coming up with.
You do have a point.
In retrospect, I was unfair and I am guilty of something that I personally really dislike : sweeping generalizations.
All of the writers do not fall into my Hollywood/TV show gossip writers genre – in fact we have seen a piece or 2 of interesting writing from all of them.
Just cut the crap, people. There are loads of sources out there – there is a lot to write about. Sensationalizing and giving me a bunch of mindless pap is insulting. I come here to get new perspectives, to learn something. And yes, to laugh and engage with other intelligent (and not so intelligent) beings.
I’ve been thinking the same thing lately. What is the website about anymore? I was trying to rationalize it as modern feminist issues being discussed by modern people with feminist values, however — that just isn’t working for me.
This whole discussion was a shame and certainly not helping women progress in a movement of solidarity.
See, the funny thing is is that websites are not completely tailored to each individual persons tastes. I’ll bet that there woudl be a lot of unhappy readers if their favorite site got too serious, or too comical or whatever else, so there’s got to be a balance. I think that’s the idea behind the varity of writers (who all do a great job in their own rights) on this site. They all write about things that are important TO THEM because it’s a BLOG. My advice to the above readers who don’t like some of the stories they read? DON’T READ THEM. There are plenty of other stories featured on this site that clearly pique your interest so focus on them. Just because YOU might not like something written by a certain author doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t or doesn’t. This blog is such great blog because there IS such variety to the content and that’s obviously what keeps people coming back. Read what you like, pass over what you don’t. I like the Wall street Journal, but I don’t read every damned thing on their site because frankly, I don’t care about every damned thing on there — but i also don’t bitch about it, either. Same with any other news site or blog.
You know when you pick up or log in to the Wall Street Journal that 99% of the content is financially based, right? And that is why you read it – to stay abreast of the economic climate, to find out which way the wind is blowing on Wall Street.
At least that’s why I read it.
When I pull up Zelda Lily, I expect to read interesting content that focuses on the Feminist point of view. I’m okay with a posting being serious, informative, irreverent, or funny. I do find that interesting, all of it.
However, don’t write a fluff piece on an actress or a TV show and slap some kind of Feminist tag on it as an after thought.
I’m not fooled.
I am bored.
I am insulted that you think I’m gullible enough to think this kind of stuff somehow matters.
That isn’t why I visit a Feminist site.
I am here because I think that Feminism matters.
I’ll go to Evil Beet or Perez Hilton, etc if that’s what I am really interested in.
Agreed. ZL has changed a lot with the addition of the new writers, and not in a good way. I understand that one author doesn’t want to be responsible for posting ALL of the content to this blog, but it’s not helpful to have a handful of writers contributing lots of content that the readers (at least the readers who comment) don’t seem enjoy, or at least don’t find important enough to comment on. I can’t count how many posts I’ve seen recently that have very few comments from readers or that I even care enough about to finish reading and comment on (this could be only me, though).
I stopped reading EB a long time ago when I realized I was tired of this celebrity nonsense that’s everywhere, but lo and behold, celebrity nonsense is creeping into ZL too.
I haven’t given up on the new writers, as some of them show potential, but my hopes for them are fading away as I see more posts about True Blood, the Twilight bull shit, and Kate Gosselin.
there you go with your sweeping generalizations of grandeur again blurry.
YOU read the site because there are pieces that interest YOU. and that’s great. but as clearly stated above, not everything is going to be tailored specifically to your tastes. there are probably plenty of people who don’t care to read about sarah palin or women in politics on this site (which the site covers frequently) and you know what? instead of bitching that the site is “politics heavy”, they probably read other things that interest them.
bottom line? if you’re bored, don’t read the things that you consider boring. you’re just sabotaging yourself and setting yourself up for apparent disappointment. i’m not quite sure what it is about what i’m saying that you’re not getting, but if you really seperate yourself from your staunch opinions (which are fine, because opinions are supposed to be personalized and firm), you’ll get what i’m saying in an okay for everyone, generalized way.
So, Kate the Great – what you’re saying is that a self described Feminist site should just open up and become a gossip blog?
Allrightey then.
You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m entitled to mine. I don’t need to proclaim my greatness to know good or bad writing, nor do I need little more than basic reading comprehension to understand when a piece is a bit of fluff better suited to a gossip mag.
So, pardon me when I see bullshit and call it out.
This, too is what being a feminist is about. I don’t feel the need to “play nice” to avoid hurting feelings.
The spate of postings related to gossip then tagged with some kind of faux feminist title as an afterthought suck. They legitimately suck to such an extent that they possibly would be laughed at even on a Celeb gossip blog. Please, I don’t need to link to specific examples. We all know which ones I’m referring to.
The posting on the burlesque-ish Ink and Iron beauty pageant was pure garbage. I couldn’t believe I was seeing it on ZL. I defy you or anyone else to find some kind of true reason that piece was posted here.
So, what you’re saying is I should just shut up and ignore this erosion of what should be an intelligent, interesting, funny, and yes – even controversial site? I should just keep my mouth shut?
I don’t fucking think so.
If you are such a delicate flower that you can’t handle legitimate, constructive criticism, then you really shouldn’t write or aspire to write for a living.
lol blurry, your instability is showing. i never said i was a “delicate little flower”, first of all. second of all, i never flew into a rage and dropped the f-bomb like it was my job because some faceless person on the internet got my panties all in a twist. you need to calm down. i’ve seen your comments on the site before; your constant ‘i’m going to be a bitch when i see fit’ is getting kind of old. we know, we’ve heard it all before yawn.
see, i’m not telling people how they should run a site or what kind of content they should, because it’s not my place. my place is to find interesting websites that pique my interest and read the articles that appeal to me, while open-mindedly understand that i’m not going to like, be interested, or care about some of the things i’m going to run across. that’s my place. but maybe youve always found it hard to find a place of your own in life and confused everything anyway, thinking that it’s got to be your way or no way. and for that, if that’s the case, i pity you.
you can call out bs whenever and however you choose, but stating that something doesn’t belong on a particular website or book or whatever just because YOU don’t see any correlation no matter how vague you perceive it to be, is not calling out ‘bs’, it’s just being ridiculous. if. you. don’t. like. it. don’t. read. it. as said in my last comment, it’s not a hard concept to grasp.
and also ‘calling out’ writers and saying that pieces that theyve written is complete garbage, as you referred to the ink and iron article is just rude. i didn’t think zelda lily had a following like that, but i guess your true colors are showing. i actually thought the iron and ink piece was written pretty well. did it particularly interest me? no, but i wasn’t insulting to the writer by calling it garbage and i wasn’t having a coronary because it didn’t interest me. just.. rude.
and no one’s telling you to keep your mouth shut. i didn’t, if you reread my previous comments, and i wouldn’t, because it’s freedom of speech all over the place. but i will ‘call you out’ when i think you’re being insulting (ie the ink and iron “garbage” reference) and when you’re just being an ass with no basis behind it. sorry, but i guess you’d consider that’s “me being a bitch”, and am i going to change that? “i don’t fucking think so”.
eyeroll.
Kate. it isn’t all about you. It never has been, it never will be.
Unless, of course, you are one of the writers.
I’m just not seeing you as a writer, so that is doubtful. Glad that I could clear that up for you.
You have made so many erroneous assumptions that I’ll not even bother going into it.
Know something? (you may want to write this down) Sometimes fuck is the perfect word. I’ll make the decision when it is called for myself, thanks.
I refuse to argue with someone who is not equipped for it.
Ta
no, i’m not a writer and thats probably the only accurate assumption you’ve made today. or ever.
Sarah A, I admire you for writing this. It would have been easy for you to feel embarrassed about some of the comments made (which I found unduly harsh in a few cases), and just try to pretend the whole Olivia Munn thing never happened. Instead you came back to the problem and explained why you wanted to focus on this.
I like the celebrity coverage. Maybe it’s because celebrity gossip is a guilty pleasure for me, but I feel that it’s important to keep an eye on specific examples of how women are portrayed in the media by others, how they portray themselves, and discussing personal agency (which you are definitely bringing up here).
These are valuable discussions to have. Women in the media are the most-watched women there are. Doesn’t analyzing what they do and how they’re perceived make sense, if we’re to understand how our society as a whole thinks about women? We should be holding these celebrity women accountable. What they say has a much greater impact due to the size and diversity of their audience than any feminist advocate. That’s a bit sad, but in this day and age, it’s the truth.
We can learn a lot from analysis of celebrities, and I for one am glad for the breadth of topics being covered by the writers, both new and old. My one caveat here is that you should leave the gossiping to the gossip sites, and make sure that articles are written so as to invite discussion of serious topics, even when they’re about non-serious people. And I do think that has been a standard upheld thus far, which is great.
For those who don’t want to read about celebrities, fine – don’t. There are plenty of other articles here, thanks to the fact that there are now so many writers. Just skip over the celebrity articles if you’re not interested.
Amy writes interesting, intelligent pieces; Dione too. Though all of you may not agree with me, as they’re part of what seems to be termed ‘the newbies’ in this thread, they’re good additions to the site in my opinion.
And I of course like the writing of the more well-established ‘triumvirate’ of Sarah TS, Katie & Tom.
You know, I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but I think being referred to as a part of a “triumvirate” of anything has definitely got to be the tops. (In a fun way, of course!)
xo
While I also agree that the more pop centred articles surrounding television shows and celebrities don’t really interest me and I am far more likely to skip over them, I do understand their place on a site directed towards women, and women’s interests. I also often will skip over the articles involving special interest American politics- not because they don’t deal with important materials, but because I am Canadian and I have little interest in American politics (the fact that media outlets are just flooded with American-specific information also contributes to my low tolerance).
Now I have always held that one cannot complain about something unless they are willing to make an effort to do something about it. And that is what I would suggest for the readers who are dissatisfied with the current material being published.
If you don’t like articles on television shows and pseudo celebrities’ plastic surgeries, then submit something else. Submit articles that you want to hear commentary on, and in my experience, many of them will be used (now that could be that I just have really great taste in selecting pertinent articles to this site’s definition of feminism, but I think that is pretty likely not the case).
What I appreciate about this site is its community sort of nature. People submit, people write posts, people comment, and we begin a big happy cycle of people interacting on feminist issues. That is the sort of thing that leads to change in my opinion- open discussion and the use of anecdotes, relationship building and criticism to form opinions.
Now, should you submit materials and they are ignored, and every post herein becomes about tv plot lines and botched boob jobs….well then that might be cause to complain, if not leave the site altogether.
Actually, I have done that a couple of times, Wicked.
One of them was used recently, although from a different angle than I would have taken, but that made it even more interesting to me.
I don’t know which story you’re referring to, but thank you for submitting a suggestion :-) It’s really helpful to find out directly from readers what they’re interested in seeing (and I always like to see the angle taken on stories that I would have approached differently, too)
Agreed, 7.
Sarah, you’re welcome.
Now just find us another awesome writer (or work on one of the ones you already have) to make another awesome triumvirate of authors with Amy and Dione!
This article’s better than the other two because you don’t do things like dismiss her on sexist grounds & get all catty, but it’s still painfully obvious that you have a personal beef with Olivia Munn, & maybe you should avoid writing hate screeds? That’s all I’m saying. & I can’t believe you’re still so dismissive of the fact that the photographers were trying to push her farther than she wanted to go & treating her like a piece of meat to be exploited. You’re cool with that, really? She should have just sucked it up & stripped on down? Take a chill pill on Ms. Munn, Ms. Arboleda, life’s too short.
I would like more articles on feminist pet care.
Me too Joey. I have a Newfoundland, talk about pet care.
@Sarah, I totally get your point about this Munn chick. To each their own opinion. I didn’t even know who she was before your post.
So basically bad things don’t happen to bad people? Or if they do, they have no right to complain about it? I don’t buy it.
[...] Olivia Munn Rubs Us The Wrong Way – Zelda Lily [...]
You know what is great feminism? Kicking a chick in the box with words after she calls you a cunt in public. Glad to see someone on ZL has some pride.
So, just because she’s taken pictures like those before, it should be ok all the time? If she didn’t want to, she didn’t want to. End of story. I don’t think a rape survivor should be doubted because she’s had consensual sex before.
And just because she makes some horribly tasteless and mean jokes does not mean she deserves such treatment. I wouldn’t have dealt well with what she describes, and I certainly wouldn’t like it.
Yes, I’ve been through sexual assault, and though it hurts really fucking bad when people joke about it when they don’t know any better, I would NEVER wish the experience on them. Good for them if they’re ignorant. Sexual violence or coercion of any kind can never be excused. She’s allowed to consent to some things and not others.
I really like this comment. Sarah seems to be saying “because Olivia dresses provocatively sometimes, its okay to bully her into doing it anytime.” I can’t believe that she doesn’t find that ridiculous and awful.
Not at all. Look at what she’s saying about the three different shoots she’s complained about. The Playboy one, okay — if she genuinely had a contract and they were genuinely bullying here, then fine.
But what about the shoot for her book cover? She had the power to shut down the shoot — she said as much. She felt she was being bullied into showing cleavage because that’s what the publishers wanted, but… at the end of the day, isn’t this her book and her image? If she has the power to shut down the shoot, doesn’t she have enough power to say, “No, I don’t want that much cleavage”?
Then, finally, her comment about Attack of the Show — she’s discussing the fact that her boss wanted her to remove her robe in a sexy way before she revealed a French maid costume and jumped into a pie. The French maid costume and the pie she was fine with, but asking her to remove the robe slowly was disgusting and overly sexual? Really? Doesn’t that sound like bullshit?
I’m calling bullshit on this: If these were circumstances where Olivia Munn felt threatened, where she felt pressured — even sexually harassed, why does she litter her twitter and blog pages with them? If she had had these three awful experiences and had decided she was uncomfortable showing a certain amount of skin because it might lead to her feeling pressured, why does she continue to sign up for these magazine shoots?
According to her Twitter, she just got back from a shoot for GQ. How long until she claims that the GQ people unfairly pressured her?
At this point, Olivia Munn is a Daily Show correspondent. Is there a reason why she still needs to take bikini photos to further her career?
I’m not saying that just because she takes sexy photos, she “deserves” to be harassed. I’m saying that if she gets so constantly and consistently harassed, why does she keep going back to these types of magazines when she currently has a job that doesn’t necessarily require it?